Who decides who is rich and what is a big corporation?
Can you be a little more specific with any of theses demands?
great question! Be specific. what are you asking for?
If you build your government on the revenue of the rich and big, and then tax them out of existence, how will you then pay for the great services you are demanding?
To say it’s worked in the past from that article is very misleading. All tax revenue is down because of the economy. People are NOT taxed at a lower rate today than 1950. When everyone is losing there homes, have no jobs, and don’t purchase items, pay property taxes…etc…it’s very easy to make a misleading graph. You could tax everyone @ 100% and then I could show you a graph of less money coming into the government because of 75% unemployment..etc..etc.. Taxes are the very last thing people need to be worrying about. I would focus on the Fed Reserve, Government spending, and Government collusion with NOT only corporate america, but environmental movements, and the likes. Do not be blinding by the fact that it’s just big business in bed with government. EVERY major movement is in bed with government.
And to finish what Matt J. was saying. The problem is not business, for they abide by the laws of the land, but the problem is the politicians who make the laws and some of the government entities like the Federal Reserve and the IRS.
I’m not sure if moving the marginal tax rate from 35% to 39% again is “taxing them out of existence”
My father inlaw is rich and on the $1M he made he’d pay $40K more. I think he’ll be fine.
So in other words you want to exercise control and authority over somebody else. What makes you any different than a tyrant or a slave owner? Never mind the dollar amounts because its all arbitrary, I’m talking principle here.
Heavy taxation can be demotivating and end up creating less tax revenue. For a couple years I lived in that place that Mr. Obama calls rich ($200K). We paid so much money in taxes that we decided it would be better for one of us to quit our job so that we could take care of doing some of the home stuff that needed to be done vs. paying someone else for that (which incidentally creates more tax revenue and jobs).
We cut our income in half and our taxes by much more than that. Stopped paying all sorts of others for services because we could do it ourselves. Since then we continue to be happily downwardly mobile.
While I think the government for their motivation I’m not sure if it contributes greatly to the economy. I’m not interested in working my arse off to pay taxes.
For every action there is a reaction.
Maybe we should ask him instead of having you speak for him. I suspect he’d disagree with you JT. What does “JT” stand for… Just Tax ‘em?
I didn’t speak for him. I paraphrased what he was proposing over my life and others he doesn’t like. I suspect he would disagree with me too, the sad part is he doesn’t realize the consequences of the actions he proposing. What he’s proposing is taking control over people. Thats not free or fair.
Aside from the benefit of increased funding for the one organisation which historically creates jobs during a depression, a higher tax rate on the very rich also does the important job of reducing the vast economic divide between the rich and poor. There is a great explanation of the problems associated with economic inequality on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality).
Another excellent read is “14 Ways a 90 Percent Top Tax Rate Fixes Our Economy and Our Country” (http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/2010041625/13-ways-90-percent-top-tax-rate-fixes-economy). It may sound ridiculous, but there are a lot of benefits to a 90% tax rate on income > $2 million.
I can understand that this sounds unfair to a great many people. That the rich shouldn’t be required to pay for programs to benefit people who won’t help themselves. However, can you name one millionaire who got that way without the help of hundereds, if not thousands or more, working class people?
“Aside from the benefit of increased funding for the one organisation which historically creates jobs during a depression, a higher tax rate on the very rich also does the important job of reducing the vast economic divide between the rich and poor. ” So let me get this straight. In other words you just said money is a good reason to use justified force on somebody else. That other person is no longer equal under the Bill of Rights, but now they are under your Will. From were I’m sitting it basically sounds like you want to be a Slave owner of the Economic Kind.
Gee Michael, I have a much simpler way of reducing the “vast economic divide” between the rich and poor. And this idea would be supported by all. Here it is: Tell “the poor” to start a business so they too can make money and pay taxes. But I guess they are too busy occupying the Socialist Republic of Seattle.
Did you mean idiotic or idiom? You message is really unclear especially when idiomics isn’t a word. I wouldn’t tell “the poor” to start a business, I’d tell everybody to do as they please and let others be.
There’s no way a poor person could start a business because the taxes are too high (yes, permits and other such forms of payment in order to do business are a tax).
If you meant to spell idiotic, I guess my ideas of freedom and equality do seem idiotic to somebody that doesn’t understand the concept of equality for all when they themselves are bound in slavery. Or so somebody that wants to use the power of the government and force somebody else to do what they want.
And if idiom is the base…naturally I’d tell everybody do as they please, and let me be in peace.
That last subject line was not supposed to say “hater”. please disregard that.
Why not tax the rich? Well first of all its called theft and a slave to the State. And slavery is supposed to be illegal. I personally would rather have my freedom then the “benefits” from a dishonest gain. Your logic is a lie and dishonest at best as a means to take power from one and give it to your corny of choice. Taxes take away the freedom of the individual and enslaves the soul to the State. To freely choose to give to those in need along with the personal connection created by those basic human interactions is lost. In essence by going to the State for help rather than your neighbor and it tears apart the fabric of society. Nobody EVER feels loved when they get their EBT card(food stamps), but when they get a bag of groceries left on their doorstep they most certainly do! Good luck slave getting your freedom, and stop choosing to be a slave with more benefits only to enslave yourself all the more and to enslave your fellow man. How evil is that? Basically what you say is “I want and therefore I force you to pay for it or else”.
For any of you that are worried the millionaires and billionaires are already paying their “fair share” here’s something to think about…..
“Some 86 percent of working households pay more in payroll taxes than in federal income taxes. In fact, low- and moderate-income people pay a much larger share of their incomes in federal payroll taxes than high-income people do: taxpayers in the bottom 20 percent of the income scale paid an average of 8.8 percent of their incomes in payroll taxes in 2007, compared to just 1.6 percent for taxpayers in the top 1 percent of the income distribution. …
“Low-income families also pay substantial state and local taxes. Most state and local taxes are regressive, meaning that low-income families pay a larger share of their incomes in these taxes than wealthier households do. The bottom fifth of taxpayers paid 12.3 percent of their incomes in state and local taxes in 2010, according to the Institute on Taxation and Economic Policy (ITEP) model. That was well above the 7.9 percent average rate that the top 1 percent of households paid.”
Check it out:
Center on Budget and Policy Priorities http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3505
What I said is all factless. But with your facts you would rather raise other peoples taxes than lower yours. I think you should worry about yourself instead and what you pay than what others are paying and than you might get what you want.
What if what I want is a well-funded government able to pay for the services and infrastructure that are valuable to me in my life such as transit, emergency services and education? Taxes don’t go into a black hole — they are used to pay for things that are valuable to us and help us run our civilization and live our lives. So why talk about evening out the tax burden by raising the taxes of those that pay less rather than the other way around? Perhaps because all levels of government are severely underfunded right now and cutting these valuable services and programs, partly because of the economic downturn (created by many of those that pay a smaller share of taxes than the rest of us) and also because we are collectively paying a smaller tax burden than at any time since 1958 (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2011-05-05-tax-cut-record-low_n.htm)
“What if what I want is a well-funded government able to pay for the services and infrastructure that are valuable to me in my life such as transit, emergency services and education?” First of all transit and education are not rights. Why do you want to force me into paying for your luxuries? What if I don’t want to pay and what I think your doing is wrong? How do we settle the matter?
“So why talk about evening out the tax burden by raising the taxes of those that pay less rather than the other way around?” I’ve never once said or hinted at raises taxes for anybody. I’m sorry you gathered that somewhere/somehow. I think taxes should go down for everybody. Taxes should be equal for all because all are equal. I don’t want to be anybody’s Master.
“Perhaps because all levels of government are severely underfunded right now and cutting these valuable services and programs, partly because of the economic downturn (created by many of those that pay a smaller share of taxes than the rest of us) and also because we are collectively paying a smaller tax burden than at any time since 1958″ EXCUSE ME? Underfunded? How about over spent? Have you seen the chart that shows government growth? The article didn’t mention GDP? Why’s that? Perhaps that ratio says otherwise. Its funny what facts are left out to add spin to a piece.
You want government to pay for the things that are valuable to you? Why don’t you get off your lazy ass, get a job, or start a business, and earn the money yourself? As a taxpayer, I’m sick and tired of paying for what you value.
The core of your argument seems to be that increased taxation risks the basic interpersonal interactions that are a valued core of the human experience. I wholeheartedly agree that these basic community values are extremely important. It’s actually at the center of my justification for why we need to increase taxation on the extremely rich.
This idea of strong community values can be summed up, from a sociological perspective, under the term social cohesion. The articles I referenced above both speak to how an increase in economic inequality leads to a decrease in social cohesion. By continuing to ignore the growing income disparity we risk losing the core American values that make this nation so great.
Thanks for the reply Doug. In reply to your first paragraph you say the center of your justification for why we need to increase taxation on the extremely rich is the basic interpersonal interactions core of the human experience. So what your saying is you value what the extremely rich have and want that forcefully taken away from them. That doesn’t sound like you value your neighbor, but what they have(no offense, sorry to sound harsh, just laying it out simply and text is so limiting). The crux of my argument is actually, I thought it was the government that causes the income disparity because of all the taxes they impose. Ya, there’s some scum on wallstreet but I’m not worried about them, wallstreet doesn’t tax me or you and we can’t vote anybody out(unless you’re a major stock holder in a company).
The American core value is Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Where everybody has the same protections from the government. Not to be singled out by them.
I don’t think that your argument that the government is causing income disparity matches the facts.
FACT: Income disparity has been steadily increasing since the ’70s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States)
FACT: The tax burden of US taxpayers has decreased significantly overall since the ’70s (http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/taxes/2011-05-05-tax-cut-record-low_n.htm)
Where is your evidence that taxation leads to income disparity? The facts seem to correlate to the opposite.
In one gallon of gas you buy at the pump, how much of that does the gas station owner get?, how much does the oil company get?, and least but not least, how much does the government get? I’ll look for that answer and can you do that as well. thanks.
When the government raises taxes on business. Business than raise the price of their goods on their customers. Or did you think the business would eat the loss? Where are my facts? What troubles me is you found facts that say otherwise and need some pseudo-authoritative source to make your argument. I don’t need a source for what I’ve said. Mere thought will prove the arguments I make. Um, so maybe you didn’t hear about this thing called Occupy Wallstreet and Bank of America is charging $5 to use debt cards. Any idea why they started that fee?
If I recall correctly, the CEO of BofA stated it was his inherent duty to ensure profits for his shareholders, hence the new charge for using the BofA card for debit purchases.
Hmm…. inherent duty to shareholders. Nevermind the customers. And what did the shareholders contribute to earn our money in the form of a $5 fee? Why are we paying these shareholders?
Hi NarcoSleeyGirl, you do recall correctly as to why BoA raised their fees for the use of the their debit card services.
Seriously? “inherent duty to shareholders” What did the shareholders contribute to earn money? Its called Vested Interest, they have a personal financial risk in the day to day operations of a business. They are the ones that funded a business one way or another. If you want to help fund BoA you can too by buying Shares of BoA on the stock market. Don’t you think the shareholders should be rewarded for their gamble? They are the ones that took the risk of the venture. If you don’t want to use a debt card for $5 dollars a month with BoA, the solution is simple. Don’t. I don’t. There are lots of other business that are happy to serve you in exchange for what your willing to exchange for. I don’t mean any offense, tho it is clear you don’t understand what true capitalism is and how beautiful of a free system it is for personal choice and responsibility. It is by far the best type of economy. If you did you would have a better understanding of what a shareholder is or how a business runs and makes money in order to stay in business. Please watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ygl6REtY_EU&noredirect=1
Money moved from the many to the few, and don’t tell me it was because they deserved it. That is a tempting lie. To restore justice, we need to tax wealth. Never mind taxing income, we need to get the money back from where it resides: in the accounts of the super rich. From offshore island accounts, from Switzerland, everywhere. TAX WEALTH!
“To restore justice, we need to tax wealth.” excuse me. The two are not related at all and you are sadly mistaken. How about we go back to the Gold Standard for equality. Have you heard of the silent tax?
No one likes to pay taxes. No one likes to pay their credit card bill or their mortgage or their auto insurance either. In the end, people are happy to enjoy goods and services but balk when the bill comes due.
Governments (whether local, state, or federal) offer many goods and services that people are happy to enjoy, but not eager to pay for. Below are some of things the federal government has supplied and paid for:
• The US Armed forces
• The interstate highway system
• Federal Emergency Management Agency
• Guaranteed Student Loans
• Federal Aviation Administration
• Grand Coulee Dam
• Hoover Dam
• Environmental Protection Agency
• Homeland Security
• Salaries and health insurance for Tea Party congressmen
• Agricultural subsidies
• Oil industry subsidies
• Big bank bailouts
• The Iraq war
• The Afghanistan war
The list of government services goes on forever. No two people will agree on everything the federal government should provide. However, everything the government does do, costs money. I will also wager that on every individual in the country will find at least one thing they like on the small but eclectic list of government services I have provided above.
Unless the government sends each person a bill for little thing it does, the only way to pay for government is through taxes.
The problem is that for the last 30 years (beginning with when Reagan became president) the government has not been collecting the revenues needed to finance its operations. Firebrand right wing politicians have been telling people they can have things without having to pay for them. Over the last 30 years, the right wing has drastically (and disastrously) cut tax revenues, without cutting expenditures. The national debt has skyrocketed as a result.
The following Wikipedia link traces the history of US debt growth beginning in 1941 when Roosevelt was president.
The site (referencing the CBO Historical Budget Page) illuminates several facts:
1. The accumulated gross national debt from 1940-1981 was under $1 trillion
2. The first time ever that the gross national debt exceeded $1 trillion was in 1982 when Reagan was president
3. The gross national debt more than doubled to $2.3 trillion in 1987 when Reagan was still president
4. Clinton, the first democratic president since 1980 (when Carter stepped down), inherited a gross national debt of $4 trillion and left a gross national debt of $5.6 trillion in 2000
5. In probably the worst era of government spending and profligacy in the country’s history, the years 2001 – 2009 (GW Bush’s presidency) saw the gross national debt rise from $5.6 trillion to over $10 trillion
George Bush’s presidency was one of the worst disasters this country has ever faced. He and other republicans told people they can have wars, new bureaucracies, more government services, without having to pay for any of it.
The Iraq war, alone, has cost close to $800 billion (http://costofwar.com/en/) . The war was completely unnecessary and served only to indulge Pres. Bush’s ego and sense of glory. If the war’s only accomplishment was the elimination of Saddam Hussein, then it has to be the most expensive assassination operation ever. The current US population is about 312 million people (http://geography.about.com/od/obtainpopulationdata/a/uspopulation.htm). If the federal government billed for its services, each US individual (every man, woman and child) would owe $2564 for the Iraq war alone.
Yes, republicans talk about the national debt. In an environment where the national annual deficit exceeds $1 trillion, the republicans talk about shaving a few million from this social program or a few million from the next one.
The republicans make a big stink about the national debt now, but they are happy to run up the debt and put everything on plastic when they are in charge. Republicans and the Tea Party are like people who invite you to a restaurant and then get up to leave before the bill arrives, leaving you holding the bag.
The right wing talks about taxation as a form of theft. But who is more the thief, the people who say we should pay for the services we enjoy, or those who think we should enjoy goods and services for free and pass the bill onto our children?
The right wing talks about “freedom.” Freedom for them means free-ride, free-lunch, freedom from discomfort, freedom from inconvenience, freedom from having to pay, and, most importantly, freedom from responsibility. Let’s start wars but let’s let other people’s children fight them.
It is fine for people to disagree on what programs and services the government provides. However, we have a legal collective obligation to pay for everything we ask our government to provide. Politicians talk about cutting spending in broad terms (“across-the-board” cuts, cut x $trillion from spending, everything is “on the table.” However, no one says what they want to cut.
Politicians do not say specifically what they want to cut (e.g. to reach a goal of $3 trillion) because they do not have any idea, or the ideas they have would be so unpopular.
I really think the government has to raise its revenues in order to meet its obligations. That means the government has, at least, to bring tax levels back to what they were before the disastrous Bush tax cuts. We had a balanced budget prior to Bush’s assuming the presidency. When President Clinton left office in 2001, the federal budget had a surplus.
This is as cogent and accessible an indictment of the Republican Party, long overdue, as it is an irrefutable appeal to reason, meaning in this instance that we exercise our duties as citizens and pay, through taxation, for the many essential services needed to survive as a republic. How refreshing — the truth!
“Unless the government sends each person a bill for little thing it does, the only way to pay for government is through taxes.” How did the government pay for itself after the 4th of July 1776 up until 1913?
5. True Bush had the worst era of spending until Obama come along. But you neglected that last little tidbit(unfair).
Its pretty clear your very unfair and slanted in your opinions of Democrats and Republicans. But aside from the rose colored glasses of your favorite party I like how you write.
Why are we in Libya? If you criticize Bush for being in Iraq (which they would have nukes by now had we not gone in when we did) than if you were fair than you should be criticizing Obama for Libya
“I really think the government has to raise its revenues in order to meet its obligations.” Or just cut spending, wouldn’t that be easier and cheaper?
“When President Clinton left office in 2001, the federal budget had a surplus.” Dude, he stole money from Social Security, he raided the piggy bank. I don’t exactly call that a “surplus” and I wouldn’t think you would call that balanced either now that you know that fact.
Republicans and people who are Taxed Enough Already are not cut from the same cloth. You can’t fairly compare the 2. Apples and oranges.
I think that the early years of american government with a series of tarrif, excise, and other similar taxes. So we had taxes but no income tax.
We are not “in Libya” in any way that is similar to our occupation of Iraq. We don’t have troops there, we are not in charge of the opperation, and we are not spending $10B a month to assist.
Bush and Obama have done the same thing. So what if we’re not spending $10B/mo in Libya, as if its a money thing. Um, I think flying over Lybia counts just as much as having “boots” on the ground, but either way, we do have “tennis shoes” on the ground. Bottom line is Congress did not declare war and the President does not have power to declare war and we’ve been there past our stay.
corporate tax rates should be defined on a yearly basis, and determined by some kind of standard like the size of the gap between the rich and the poor. when the gap is large, corporate taxes are large too. when the rich/poor gap is small, corporate tax rates go down. if corporations know that this money is going into the system one way or another, their best option is to pay their employees a livable wage.
First of all I want to thank you for being civil and not attacking anybody and trying to help solve the problem. Thats a creative idea but I think it ignores the fundamental truth of whether its fair for the government to single out an individual or not. I personally want everybody to be treated equal. I just don’t see income status as a justification for such scrutiny(especially when we’re supposed to be protected by our Constitution).
You seem to assume that all corporations (1) have wealth to give away whenever someone wants it and (2) that all corporations abuse employees. This is untrue and unfair.
The top 10 percent already pay something like 86 pecent of all federal income tax while the bottom 50 percent of Amercan wage earners pay nothing. That’s not fair and it’s not good for democracy. It gives the rich too much say over what happens in Washingt, D.C. We all know money talks when it comes to our elected leaders. He, or she, who pays the bills gets to decide what laws are passed, despite what the average voter wants. What we need is a complete revamp of the income tax code so everyone pays their fair share – including the poor — so they have a voice in Washington, D.C.
ignore this right-wing troll, he’s probably paid to post dumb crap all day on message boards
So when somebody else has an opinion that you don’t agree with you sling mud. Your unfair and not a critical thinker. Your the biased one. How dare you!!! Your not helping to solve the problem you sir, are part of the problem, your probably paid by George Soros himself. Your the troll!
I agree Michael. As a Seattle Occupier, Anon wants his voice heard but doesn’t want the voices of those with other ideas heard. He is what educated people call a hypocrite. And I agree, he is part of the problem.
Nice that somebody spoke up. thanks for the intellectual honestly.
Tax dollars don’t give people influence over political policy, campaign contributions do.
Tax dollars were mostly from the sale of alcohol back in the early 1900’s. The only reason prohibition happened was because the Fed figured out a way to impose the Federal Income Tax on the individual. Prior to that, tax dollars did speak.
I think when you factor in the full picture of income tax, payroll tax, social security tax and an array (of often regressive) state and local taxes you’d find the percentage more equitable and even find the poor pay a higher percentage than the rich as a percentage of income.
The rich however get the benefit of many pages of tax deductions they can use to effectively lower their income and sway the system their way.
The folks who are getting the free stuff, don’t like the folks who are paying for the free stuff, because the folks who are paying for the free stuff can no longer afford to pay for both the free stuff and their own stuff.
The folks who are paying for the free stuff want the free stuff to stop, and the folks who are getting the free stuff want even more free stuff on top of the free stuff they are already getting!
Now… The people who are forcing the people who pay for the free stuff have told the people who are RECEIVING the free stuff, that the people who are PAYING for the free stuff, are being mean, prejudiced, and racist.
So… The people who are GETTING the free stuff have been convinced they need to hate the people who are paying for the free stuff by the people who are forcing some people to pay for their free stuff, and giving them the free stuff in the first place.
We have let the free stuff giving go on for so long that there are now more people getting free stuff than paying for the free stuff.
Now understand this. All great democracies have committed financial suicide somewhere between 200 and 250 years after being founded. The reason? The voters figured out they could vote themselves money from the treasury by electing people who promised to give them money from the treasury in exchange for electing them.
The United States officially became a Republic in 1776, 235 years ago. The number of people now getting free stuff outnumbers the people paying for the free stuff. We have one chance to change that. In 2012. Failure to change that spells the end of the United States as we know it.
“Failure to change that spells the end of the United States as we know it.” I just hope people want to save this country and not what they think this country is and is not. If people only knew the truth.
You KNOW the system is completely broken when you have people like Warren Buffett screaming that his taxes are too low!!!!
Buffett lied about his taxes and he also forgot to disclose his conflict of interest. There’s finical motivation behind his “backing”. He tried duping us.
What stops Warren Buffet from voluntarily paying more taxes? He can send a check to Uncle Sam anytime he wants. Don’t you find it interesting that these “millionnaires and billionaires” who want to pay more taxes only make such statements AFTER they have made their money? I suspect their views were different when they were working hard to earn their wealth.
Again, you need to define your terms. They’re already being taxed. Unfortunately under the tax codes as currently written it’s easy to use a variety of perfectly legal strategies to shelter most if not all revenue from taxation. That’s what needs to be rectified, and it requires rewriting the tax codes to
end abusive shelters.
You’re on to something. The problem isn’t big business. Its the tax code but more specifically the people to write the tax code. Guess who wrote the most current tax code?
Why not just go back to Clinton, Reagan or even Eisenhower tax rates to solve the problem? The ecomony did quite well even though the top tax rate was 90%. The problem is that the public doesn’t know their own history.
Because getting back on the Gold Standard would be better. As would the 1912 tax code. Its vastly more fare.
The income tax is wrong and needs to be repealed! Taxation = theft. Figure it out.
thanks for the link!
Sure, in a time when jobs are scarce lets just make it worse by raising taxes on the job makers. Another naive demand.
I would argue that the supposed “job makers” aren’t making any jobs at all while benefiting from some of the lowest taxes in history. How much more tax cuts are needed before they start creating jobs?? AND IN FACT, in many cases they are the job ELIMINATORS. It is them who outsource jobs, and lay people off simply for their insatiable appetite for higher profits. Seriously keep coming to this blog and then come to west lake, you might learn something, and then can replace the incredibly false narrow minded rhetoric that is constantly preached on fox news.
“you might learn something, and then can replace the incredibly false narrow minded rhetoric that is constantly preached on fox news. ” gee, that sounds like narrow minded rhetoric that is constantly preached by you. The problem is not fox news or big business. Its the people who make the laws. Its gov. institutions like the IRS and the Federal Reserve. What we need to do is vote good honest people into office! If you think Fox is the problem God help us. I could easly say the problem is CNN, MSNBC, ABC, NBC, Bloomberg, NPR, etc. I would be fooling myself.
Kill the rich and take everything. Give it to the people. The rich people are the source of all evil. We would have all the money we needed if they were gone.
Comments such as this only become fodder for the right wing media to delegitmize this movent as anarchist nut jobs. Please stop posting such idiotic comments. You’re not helping the cause.
It’s not idiotic. It’s just a comment fueled by pure anger. I agree it should not be posted, however. Keep pure anger for ranting amongst friends. But let’s not confuse anger-led statements into name-calling such as idiotic. Right wing media will always want to delegitimize this movement, and if they can’t find something to use, they will make it up. Look past the anger and explain why this idea wouldn’t work instead?
the “right wing” media. The left wing media should also disapprove any use of violence and vandalism. Its not a right vs. left thing.
Pure anger is righteous and that dude does not have any justification whatsoever. His comment is fueled by pure hatred which is why he wants to shed blood. He can be angry without hating. But because he wants what somebody else has it reveals a jealous greedy heart, not a heart of righteousness that wants to protect individual freedoms as he would have you believe. He’s really a tyrant in disguise. Stay away from people like him. He’s not welcome in this.
I dare you to not be a hypocrite full of greed. You want what others have and are jealous. Your no better than those you accuse with slander of being evil just because they have something you want. Oh how simple are you. Money is neither good nor evil. it is only a tool to be used. But your lust for money makes you want bloodshed. If you live by that motto, you will die by that motto. Be careful my friend.
The poor are not greedy for money. They’re greedy for equality. The rich are greedy because they fear losing and not gaining all that they can get, and who gives a damn if it’s fair.
FYI these ratios are accurate…
“Every night, 10 men met at a restaurant for dinner. At the end of the meal, the bill would arrive; they owed $100 for the food that they shared. Every night they lined up in the same order at the cash register to pay the bill. The first four men paid nothing at all. The fifth, grumbling about the unfairness of the situation, paid $1. The sixth man, feeling a little put out, paid $3. The next three men paid $7, $12 and $18, respectively. The last man was required to pay the remaining balance, $59; he realized he was paying for not only his own meal but the unpaid balance left by the first five men.
The 10 men were quite settled into their routine when the restaurant threw them into chaos by announcing that it was cutting its prices. Now dinner for the 10 men would only cost $80. This clearly would not affect the first four men; they still ate for free. The fifth man announced he would now pay nothing either. The sixth man lowered his contribution by 1/3, and paid only $2. The seventh man deducted $2 from his usual payment and paid only $5. The eighth man paid $9 instead of his usual $12. The ninth man paid $12, $6 less than before. This left the last man with a bill of $52. Outside of the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings, and angry outbursts began to erupt. The sixth man yelled: “I got only $1 out of the $20 in cost reduction, and he got $7,” pointing at the last man. The fifth man joined in: “Yeah! I only saved $1 too. It is unfair that he got seven times more than me.” The seventh man cried, “Why should he get a reduction of $7 when I only got $2?”
The nine men formed an outraged mob (this is where the Democratic Party aggravates everyone about unfairness), surrounding the 10th man. The first four men followed the lead of the others: “Even though we weren’t paying anything in the first place, we didn’t get any of the $20 reduction in cost; where is our share?” The nine angry men then carried the 10th man up to the top of a hill and lynched him!
The next night, the nine remaining men met at the restaurant for dinner. But when the bill came, there was no one to pay it. “
what is your point?
it takes a little thought to figure it out. keep thinking.
I don’t mind paying the $59 provided I am A.) Paying for food (education, Quality health care and not weapons or devices of control) B.)Paying the bill directly after witnessing that the others were in fact feed (not paying 5 middle men and some other BS “needs”)
The man paid the $59 because he valued the people he was with more than money. If the last man had just walked in paid $59 towards his friends bill and left the cashier might have been tempted to pocket $10 and the cook may have severed smaller portions or less food.
The real question is…Do we as society have the will power to forgo that Starbucks coffee everyday, the latest gadget, or the pair of shoes we have been eyeballing to help a friend, neighbor, or stranger???
If you are a techy are you really going to give $30k a year to a family of 4, or are you going to buy that new car to show off to your friends ???
We must first change ourselves.
none of what you spoke about has anything to do with the real issues at hand. The bottom line is I don’t want to pay for somebody’s luxuries when they aren’t willing to help themselves. And so who are you or who is the government to take/tax my resources because you say its for the greater good(whatever ever excuse you use i.e. transit, education, food)? What about my rights? Who’s going to protect me from your theft when you get your way with the government? Who are you to say I have enough only to start stealing from me.
If the poor were after equality than they would go after the people that control them. THE GOVERNMENT! Not the private business THEY choose by their own FREE WILL to do business with. How is anything I’ve said a lie or dishonest? You make no sense. You ask who gives a damn if its fair? You will when the greedy come knocking on your door asking for more. But right now you stand with the greedy trying to take what is not yours. Your twisting arguments and answers with bait and switch tactics in your logic and thats how you come to the backward conclusions you come to my friend. I speak open and honestly with you. It is not the Starbuck’s of the world that throw you in jail for not paying your taxes. It is the tax man. I owe you nothing, nor will you take anything from me. Let me choose to give to whom I will in their time of need. That is love.
It is the love of money that is evil and you want what somebody else has. Don’t be like that. Also this protest is NON-VIOLENT. It is a peaceful protest. Exercise your rights and freedoms and don’t steal others or oppress others in the process of exercising yours.
Keep in mind there will be a Red Square meeting being planned for saturday the 15th!! Stay tuned!!!
Somebody had a good idea earlier…What about a march in Medina?? One of the richest countries in the country!
How is it a company can have $47 Billion dollars in profit and not pay any taxes on it? This is blatent coruption and it needs to be reigned in now! This should be at the top of everyone’s list at all of the occupy protests!!
Note that CEO (Jeffery Immelt) of that company (GE) has been appointed by the president as the Jobs Czar. Given all the jobs he has shipped overseas and his collusion in spending the prior stimulus funds it seems like the fox guarding the henhouse. Why isn’t anyone else outraged? This is what we should be in the streets over!
This happened because GE gave Obama money and in return Obama wrote tax code that would favor GE and GE and the cliff notes version. So GE ‘s actions were legal and under the law. So its not GE that is corrupt, but the people that write the laws! Will you people please see who the real corrupt ones are!!! Can you blame GE for doing a good job at filing their taxes? No you can’t honestly. But you can blame Obama’s tax code.
I think we’re saying the same thing. Immelt is gaming the system, Obama is providing the opportunity to do so. It’s tit for tat, everyone is screaming about Wall Street but noone is paying attention to what is going on at Pennsylvania Ave. My contention is that no corporation should get preferable treatment from our government.
Why is corporate control of the political process not a corruption of democracy? The fact that it’s legal to bribe the people who write the laws, or more correctly deliver laws written for them by their contributors, does not make it right. To say that corporations are doing nothing wrong and that only politicians are corrupt is like walking around with one eye closed. No depth perception.
perhaps walking around with one eye open does lead to a lack of depth perception but at least I can focus and see what the root cause of the problems of this country is. While everything you said is true, its still not the bribers who ultimately write the laws and should be held accountable. Its the corrupted politicians that accept the bribes you and I should be concerned about. Its those people we in trust to run our country, not some stupid CEO. Also if you don’t like a business don’t give them your business or money. win-win.
If you believed that’s true you would imediatly sign in with Get the Money Out, to get big corporate money out of government.
it might seem like a good idea at first glance, but there are unintended consequences none of which were mentioned in that article, so it seems biased to me. It ties the hands of the good as well as it does the bad “in order to protect us”. There’s just another bit of freedom being lost.
Obama did not write the tax code, or any other code. The tax code, such as it is, has been written by Congress. Only congress writes the federal laws (of which the tax code is part). The President only signs congressional bills into law, but he doesn’t write them.
If you are disgruntled by Obama and the current tax code, perhaps it was his agreeing to extend the tax cuts Pres. Bush signed into law
“Obama singed them into law, he didn’t write the tax code”. dude, whatever. I’m surprised you didn’t notice anything I’ve written about how I think Bush and Obama are about the same politically. Neither of them believe in the free market.
This shouldn’t happen because if we were to tax the rich people more, they supply jobs to the people and their pays will be lowered greatly.
Your statement makes no sense.
if you knew the other side of the argument it would make sense to you. It does to me.
That’s a rather popular myth which has yet to be proven true. I see you also failed to provide any evidence for it.
I’m certainly not among the 1%, but I have a good job and can’t spend my time on the streets. That said, I am 100% behind the movement and want to support it any way I can. What is the best way to do this? I can spare a little $$, but I also have some old but good camping equipment, I could bring down food etc. My feeling is that the most important thing that we can do is SUSTAIN the movement. We need to ignore the criticism and keep focusing the attention on #1 the cause of our current malaise. Unchecked greed. Keeping the spotlight on the greedy is the best thing we can do. How can I help?
“unchecked greed”. So you want it to be against the law to be greedy. Well it sounds like your greedy. It doesn’t matter that you don’t have anything, your still greedy, so we should start with you and throw you in jail first. See how dumb an idea that is when its turned on you? I hope you see my point, so no offense and its not personal. The problem is not the banks who follow the laws, the problem is the corrupt Federal Reserve and politicians. The problem is the IRS who throws you in jail if you don’t pay your taxes. Its not Bank of America or Starbucks which police you and make you subject to them. Its the government. We need to vote for honest people more than anything and enforce the laws of the land and repeal the corrupt laws. Zealousness without wisdom is dangerous.
Thank you for your willingness to help. If you look at the General Assembly minutes from yesterday, you will see a list of current needs in terms of tangible items. One other huge needs is simply outreach – talking to people about the movement and helping to build momentum. There is also a need for people who have the ability to get copies made of information etc., so it can be distributed, if that is something you would be interested in! If you look under “working groups” you will find contact information for various groups, and I think touching base with the people leading the ones where you think you have something to contribute would be the best way to find out about concrete steps you can take to help!
and learn more about the issue. Read up on are history of tax code and how the government is supposed to work. Don’t just be zealous without knowledge. You and others will suffer in your haste. Please tread carefully.
You have dozens of posts with all sorts of claims and hyperbole. However, you never cite a single fact or back any statement up with sources. What tax code history are you referring to? How do you think “the government is supposed to work?” Please give examples of what YOU have read.
You attack me with BS. Rather than entangle yourself in a specific issue like I have you simple tell me I speak hyperbole. You speak ad hominem( a personal attack), thanks a lot. Lots of what I speak I about are self evident. I too have cited dates and tax code and laws. I’m sorry if you don’t like the fact I don’t post links to “prove” my argument. But just because I don’t doesn’t invalidate what I’ve said. A lot of what I’ve stood up for is principle.
A lot of what we stand up for is principle.
Why do the Republicans get to own God.
Here is what the bible has to say about abuse of the poor.
What are you talking about? Your completely out of context. Stop throwing a monkey wrench into a simple issue. I don’t care how religious you think you are or are not. I don’t care how you live your life. That’s between you and your world view. I care about equality for all, those are the principles I speak of.
Thank you so much for your words of encouragement and support.
If you’d like, you can just come down to Westlake and say hi. We’re friendly folk. Items can be dropped off there, or mailed, or whatever you like.
Here is a link regarding donations:
If you have specific talents (or know someone who does) that match any of the following work groups, here is the link to their contact information:
The other *super* important thing is to spread the word. Talk to everyone you know about the Occupy movement. Put a sign in your car window or in your house or office. We are the media!
Hope this information helps!
we have to keep this movement going, I am now retired having worked for big corporations,I had enough decided less money is better than the hogwash I had to put up with. IT is all about the money, I would love to see a countrywide revolution against big business and challange our elected officials for treating the hardworking citizens so poorly and ignoring their needs over greed. No one should have money in Bank of America for any reason. Think about the millions the CEO’s of the big corporations are making for what? Look at the Washington Mutual Fiasco, you dont see those execs “sacraficing” a dime for anything it is all about them. How else can we make this grow!!!
I agree I do not see execs “sacraficing” a dime for anything it is all about them. Now it’s up to us to take back what was rob! our leaders treat us poorly because our money goes to the I.R.S rather then to congress. The I.R.S has been deemed by the supreme court as not being apart of the government, the I.R.S collects the taxes and sends it to the Fed reserve which is a private company too. And not apart of the government. so lets make sure in our life time The IRS and fed reserve are back in the real hands of our government “CONGRESS”
David Ferola 9 step plan
Step1) Send your TAXES to a trusted congressman or congresswoman which maybe hard to find in your state. Prepare your taxes made out to the I.R.S check and envelope,
get another bigger envelope and fit in inside write on the envelope congress address preferably to Ron Paul,
203 Cannon House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone Number: (202) 225-2831
Have congress unwrap the envelopes, state you want your taxes to be mailed to the I.R.S
If you are asking yourself, what will this achieve first it can be used as a bargain chip however, congress cannot spend it or over take the fed reserve and banks system over night, nonetheless this will indeed give teeth/meat, back to congress.
STEP2) At every rally SHOUT “Send you taxes to Ron Paul!”
Or at every rally SHOUT “Send you taxes to Congress now”
Step 3) OWNERSHIP: With meat and teeth congress can demand ownership of the Federal Reserve, as to how much, well a good start would be 45 percent, of course congress should have full control of the fed reserve. However, letting the opposition think you’re a fair man goes a long way.
STEP4) Demand FREE copy rights and trademark and Patents for first timers, this will stimulate the economy, I know of someone who created the spinner rims, but he did not have the money to protect it, guess what a company/businessman from other country got there first, 4 billion dollars a year was generated and people were put to work. Having someone get there with a great idea first is nothing new, but if small American inventors had an edge it would help greatly the economy. Imagine if everyone had a little dream supported by the government for first timers.
STEP5) At every rally SHOUT “free Patents free trademarks!”
for the rest click link http://inkrumguardians.webs.com/
“I would love to see a countrywide revolution against big business” What good would come from that? What kind of computer did you use to post that? I don’t know of any small business that make computers? I would love to own one? can you send me a link to their website so I can buy one? many thanks. I think big business makes life better.
I have a dream.
I would make slaves out of all of you.
I would bring peace through your subjugation.
We are currently in competition with civilizations who have made this dream a reality through the power of propaganda, dogma and generational institutionalization. The ideas that govern movements toward equality interfere with capitalization and by now, it SHOULD BE OBVIOUS that our government WILL KILL YOU should you get in the way of international commerce.
They will just blame it on someone else later.
What percentage would you like the rich to pay? Be specific and have a solution.
Also what percentage would you like the lower income types to pay? Be specific and have a solution.
Eagerly awaiting your non-response.
they won’t answer you because once you nail them to the floor than they can’t ask for anymore.
A friend of mine came up with a solution that I think everyone 18 or under could buy into. At 18, each citizen would be awarded $1 million dollars by the US government. They could use the money any way they choose. To research cancer, to become a business mogul, to buy a ferrari and chase skirts or to drown themselves in alcohol and smoke dank nugs. When the money runs out they must work in government gulags until death. That allows the young to make their own decisions based on their dreams without worry about capitalization. The motivated will become educated and pursue endeavors that will benefit humanity and live long fruitful lives. The slackers will live fast and die young. The frugal will be able to live the middle class American dream. Everyone wins. Those who make good decisions excel, those who make bad decisions either burn out(than to fade away, my, my, hey, hey) or work in servitude at the end of their fortune. The system as it is doesn’t need to change, everyone controls their own destiny. The them the Dude told you.
“The motivated will become educated and pursue endeavors that will benefit humanity and live long fruitful lives.”
What do we do when the “motivated” pursue endeavors that bring pain & loss to the frugal & slackers?
I don’t think the solution precludes us from living under the rule of law, it just levels the playing field and gives everyone an equal chance. If you blow your opportunity through sloth or ignorance, you reap the consequences. Granted its not as simple as the $9.99 pizza but it eliminates the cultural and generational slavery that poverty has caused. Also you’ll hook up with far more hotties driving a Ferrari at 20 as you would at 70 :).
I talked with lots of people who agree we don’t need to punish the rich, but we do expect them to share in the pain. A ten percent tax increase on a guy making a million a year (after deductible expenses of running the business) can surely afford the additional taxation. After all I think anyone can live handily on $900,000 a year. If they cannot, they have an overly inflated sense of self worth or are just plain selfish.
It is particularly galling that the super rich are not feeling any pain and the banks are hardly paying anything. Check out Government Accounting Office (GAO) report number 11-696 page 131. That table shows that the banks received 16 TRILLION, yes TRILLION in emergency borrowing from the federal government between 2007 and 2010. Yet these same banks seem to have no ability to pay higher taxes. These loans were made at nearly zero percent interest. Citibank alone received $2.5 trillion. Any fool could make money receiving even a 1% return on 2.6 trillion. The bottom line is the mega rich and these corporations are refusing to share in the burden simply because they have the political clout to say they will not share in the pain. That is unacceptable. PLEASE REVIEW PAGE 131 of the GAO report.
You complain about a guy having so much money as if its yours to take because you don’t have enough. Well Sir, you did not earn it. Unless if he gives it to you its called theft by taxation. You sound greedy if you ask me. Doesn’t really matter how big (or small) your bank account is. Greed is greed. Believe me, I’m not a 1%.
The real bottom line is the Gov should have never bailed out the banks or any private business. They corrupt banks should have failed. In a true free market they would have. We don’t have real capitalism here. So your angry at the private business when they keep the profit and when they’re losing money and need a bail out your angry at the bank for getting the bail out. Funny you mention fools, any fool would know that the problem is the person who gave public money to a private business to keep them afloat. Let the corrupt business fail, thats how the free market regulates the good from that bad.
I’ll march in the streets, sleep in the square, generously donate of my resources and gladly be arrested to protect my rights as a citizen. As a citizen of this great nation I have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I should be free from the 1% compelling me to do anything that jeopardizes or compromises those rights.
its the law makers that steal your rights. Not Bank of America or Starbucks.
I didn’t say anything about BofA or Starbucks. I don’t vilify any group of people soley on their income. I’m referring to the 1% that want to control my liberty based on greed, envy, ignorance or their own vision of ‘appropriate’ social consciousness. I agree our government is wheels off and in collusion with many large multinational corporations. I also agree with taking it to the streets to get those in the wrong’s attention – freedom of speech and assembly – are rights that I hold dear.
oops, when you said 1% I thought you were talking about rich people. But now it kinda sounds like by 1% you mean the politicians and other law makers. So I guess I should ask you, who exactly are the 1% you speak of?
Hey folks, I have an informant that passed along the message that the SPD has called the State Patrol to come down and arrest anyone in the park after 10pm. Brace yourselves.
Taxes are not punishment for earning money or having a business. Taxes are one way to support the society we are part of. Taxes pay for all sorts of things: roads, dams, bridges, and public transportation, schools and teachers, libraries and librarians, public health centers, the military, fire departments and emergency services, the police, the judicial system and jails, local, county, state, and federal government, Social Security, Medicare for the elderly, Disability for the disabled, Veterans services for veterans, and Medicaid for people who are poor and do not have privately operated insurance for medical, mental health, and chemical dependency services. I’ve probably left some things out. And there are things on this list that many of us wish weren’t there (and as a society we don’t agree on which things those are).
But the point is that taxes are an important part of running our society. So taxes aren’t punishment. And if I were wealthy, I’d be like Bill Gates Sr. or Warren Buffet,saying: “Tax me! Tax me more! Tax me fairly and in proportion to my wealth! Don’t tax poor and middle class people at a higher rate than me, for God’s sake! My wealth is the result of my hard work, but other people work hard, too, and don’t get wealthy, so my wealth is largely the result of the privileges I’ve had in my life and the result of the society I live in.”
So, taxes must be fair. And right now they are not fair–not in Washington state and not in the country at large. As a society, we need to look at all the kinds of taxes we pay or could pay–sales tax, income tax, property, payroll tax, etc.–and the total sum for individuals and households should be such that the poor pay next to no taxes, the middle pay some, and the wealthy pay the lion’s share. The result must be such that everyone in our society can live well: no one is poor, and no one is decadently wealthy, and everyone has access to healthy food and energy efficient homes, and everyone has time to live and not be working all the time.
If the government has the power to tax, it has the power to destroy. The government has the power to enslave you.
“and as a society we don’t agree on which things those are” Than who are you to force somebody into something in which they don’t agree with?
I agree, taxes must be fair and equal for everyone. If I don’t have kids how is it fair I pay for my neighbors kids education?
If different people pay different tax rates than how are all men created equal? How is it the government can single somebody out just because of finances?
I’ll throw out the idea of having a moderately progressive federal income tax. That means that as you earn more, you pay a higher percentage of your income in taxes. It is a form of welfare — under a progressive tax, richer people subsidize poorer people — but most people can live with that.
But we need to avoid trying to fix our deficit only by taxing the rich. It’s very tempting, but if your tax structure is too progressive, it creates a disincentive to innovate, work hard, and invest, since if you can make a ton of money from doing that (e.g. if your innovation turns out to be very good) you’ll just have to pay most of the profits in taxes. And a tax structure that is too progressive takes responsibility away from those who aren’t rich. There can be a tendency to not work at all, since you know that those who are creating wealth will pick up your tab.
There are loopholes out there that allow people and businesses in every income bracket to (unfairly?) avoid/reduce taxes, and we should try to reduce the number of loopholes.
So massive changes aren’t needed here. We need to balance the budget by curtailing spending (maybe not in the next six months, but that’s another discussion) and raising taxes, and a moderately progressive tax system is something most people find fair.
Let me first say, if a business leaves Wa state to go to another state that does not have a state income tax, jobs will not be lost, they will only be moved.
That being said, I believe we need an initiative to introduce a state income tax which at the moment I don’t think washington state has. It would need to be written to specifically prevent taxing below a certain income level without a majority vote by the people.
I think that is perhaps the major theme that Occupy Anywehere should keep hammering at. It’s a populist meme and will have legs.
Most voters (83% in a Rasmussen national survey last year) believe that lobbyists have more influence than voters over elected officials.
Popular Support for Public Option: 77% . Instead we got a huge piece of corporate welfare for big Insurance and big Pharma.
Popular Support for letting Bush Tax cuts Expire: 64%
That didn’t happen.
Popular Support for Obama Jobs Bill and increasing taxes on wealthy: 64%
The bill can’t even make it to Senate floor.
Popular Support for Leaving Medicare As-Is: 60%
GOP and TP who voted to eliminate Medicare: 100%
Popular Support for Strong Consumer Protection Agency: 74% (including 68% of Republicans.)
GOP and TP Caucus opposition: 100% We can’t even get the head of the agency confirmed.
The solutions are : Campaign Finance Reform and Move to Amend.
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