General Assembly notes 10/18

Occupy Seattle General Assembly

  • Date/time: 2011-10-18 19:35
  • Location: Westlake Park
  • Minutes taken by: Phil Mocek
  • Audio archive:

Facilitation Team

  • Time keeper: Hudson
  • Proposal facilitation: Danica
  • Agenda facilitation: Jack
  • Keeping stack: Joshua


  • time: 19:44

  • ?

    • Last night we engaged in civil disobediance: erecting tent, I entered, some tried to join, cops pushed them back, I refused to go, I was arrested.
    • 5000 people watched on the livestream
    • Upon return, heard stories that all my fellow campers were supportive
      • formed human tents, standing on shoulders, blankets draped over heads, said, "take down this tent"
    • Was beautiful to see after yesterday's split
  • Albert
    • Last night was first night I was not at Occupy Seattle
    • Went to Occupy Portland
      • have 400-500 tents
      • have satellite location with 110
      • have library
      • have cafeteria
      • have village
      • are collecting donations for Occupy Seattle
      • consider some of our actions to be legendary
  • ?
    • some of the things at Portland are great
      • may not be practical at Westlake
  • ?
    • Why is a multi-ethnic background group meeting while they are not allowing white people as has been described by the group that cannot participate?
  • ?
    • Last night was most beautiful night I've seen at Westlake
      • people dancing, singing, not leaving
  • ?
    • has been here many nights, don't usually sleep over
    • stayed here last night, awake
      • many people, really bright lights from police cars all night
      • police and Parks were otherwise respectful
    • This area is known for people struggling with drug abuse
      • I respect their difficulty
      • Discourages some people from joining us
  • ?
    • hopes that whatever we decide tonight creates a space where more people will feel safe joining us for the whole night
  • Cameron
    • spent every night here except for last night
    • getting burned out on Westlake; help me out
  • Mike
    • advises that when we think about bringing more people and making this a more inclusive space, we prioritize people who are less privileged, most marginalized
      • including
        • people of color
        • homeless
      • thus, quite likely at any given time to have drug situations to deal with
    • would like to create space where there is understanding, tolerance, acceptance
    • two nights ago, drunk man interrupted the general assembly
      • he and medic engaged the man in police conversation
      • that people are under the influence doesn't mean they cannot be part of our community, or that their presence makes our space less safe or less productive
  • Tommy
    • spent a few nights here
    • hard to sleep when cops wake you up
    • hard to sleep when people are drumming at 4:00 a.m.
  • ?
    • thanks everyone who is here camping, fighting for those of us who are at work during the day and cannot be here
    • thanks for sleeping through drums and cop lights
    • wishes she could join

Working group reports

Legal Working Group

  • Patricia * what: Information session led by Lisa Dougaard, defense attorney who coordinates our public defense. Come if you have questions about what arrest will involve, legal status of being here, keeping safe, exercising rights, etc. * when: Wednesday October 18, 2011, 5:30 p.m. * where: Westlake Park, by main stage

Media Working Group

  • ?
    • someone convened meeting "How not to put your foot in your mouth when talking to the media"
    • WG will discuss tomorrow at 4pm to decide what should be presented to the general assembly

Information Working Group

  • Norman
    • we pass on information
    • we need to receive information
      • ex: need from each work group what time they are meeting and where
      • calendar of events, workshops, meetings, etc., so they can tell others
    • have had many reports of theft, so please watch your belongings
    • as the desert Arabs say, "trust in Allah and tether your camel"

Logistics Working Group

  • Martin
    • I've broken and set up the tent multiple times
    • broken down last time because people violated our permit
      • so keep your ears and eyes open to breach of protocol
      • if we stay organized and on same page, we can get this done
    • people step into positions of authority when they have not spent a night
    • when you see news cameras, everything is okay
    • when you see news cameras leave, police are likely to come
    • stay organized and alert your fellow citizens
    • don't leave when it rains and stay only when it's sunny
    • if you have your own agenda, you eliminate our common agenda
    • speak to others if you want to know anything about logistics, supply, sanitation, kitchen

Outreach Working Group

  • Robert and Robert
    • WG is working on two initiatives:
      • neighborhood outreach project
        • going out to green markets and other such places, setting up tables, and talking to people
      • cafe meet and greet
        • self-explanitory
    • if you want to help, have ideas for locations, etc., please see someone from outreach
      • look for smiles and Sounders colors
    • working on promotional materials
      • request feedback, particularly from Demands, Media, and Legal
    • we are at the peace tree daily at 4pm, then again after GA
    • if you know someone with design skills, please introduce us
      • we want not just content bug good looks
    • if you have experience talking to people, or are just a nice person, please join us

Sustainability Brigade Working Group

  • Carlo
    • please bring reusable utensils, cups, water bottles, etc., to reduce trash
    • will set up washing station
      • request assistance:
        • need large water containers
        • need vehicle to shuttle water and empty containers
    • sort trash nightly at 9pm

People of Color Working Group

  • Nina
    • observation: there are no people of color facilitating today
    • need your support as people of color allies to respect our process
    • thank their white allies who have protected them
    • hope to conduct teach-ins on
      • undoing racism
      • impact of racism and colonialism
      • prison industrial complex
    • meet daily at 5:30 p.m. near the hot dog stand at north end of park
    • please keep in mind the injustices people of color have and do suffer at the hands of police

Demands Working Group

  • Justin
    • throughout this week, WG will be collecting local demands you or people you know have
      • ex: more public transportation, more teachers in school, more bike paths, more people smiling and holding your hand
    • need a feel for what the group wants
    • anything they publish is not the final word, shouldn't be taken to represent the movement
    • not taking them exclusively this week, but focusing on them


  • Dan
    • several people got names of people in unions and those who would like to be to explore possibility of a Labor Union working group
    • when: tomorrow night (Wednesday, October 19)
    • where: Labor temple

Facilitation Working Group

  • Shawn
    • GA almost didn't happen tonight
    • are absorbing stress of those things
    • we're losing people
    • meet daily 4:30 under Romax sign
    • please join if you think GA is important
    • has been difficult to use process and make it work better
    • look at minutes and procedures on forums
    • email at

Peace and Safety Working Group

  • Circus
    • meeting was planned for tonight around 9pm, but looks like it won't happen then (GA unlikely to complete in 40min)
    • when something happens, people say, "Where is Peace and Safety?"
      • Look to yourself
      • If it's something major, grab everyone around you; don't wait

Internet Communications Working Group

  • Danica
    • need more people
    • if interested in social media, website maintenance, contact us at

Finance Working Group

  • Ted (not in WG)
    • in email conversation yesterday:
      • cannot open credit union account without Federal Tax ID
    • GA has not voted on opening CU account
    • discussed concept of registering with Secretary of State as a non-profit corporation
      • this needs more discussion
      • consider that someone uninvolved could register with Secretary of State as Occupy Seattle


  • ?
    • trying to get some of our gear back that the city took
      • if you lost a tent or other gear, please provide your name, description of loss
      • has pickup, needs one person to claim each tent


  • Maria
    • proposal: On Saturday, October 22, 2011, have day of solidarity, in conjunction with National Day beginning with People's Movement Rally at noon, march Against Police Brutality, march at 2pm
    • rationale:
      • similar actions happened in other cities are successfully got involvement of wide variety of communities
      • communities of color approached us because they did not see large presence of people of color
    • discussion:
      • ?
        • when we have big demonstrations on the weekend around particular themes, that's great
        • would be very powerful if leading up to that demonstration there was self-education and teach-ins about importance of the demonstration
      • ?
        • is unaware with any problems with police during other demonstrations
        • City of Seattle likes to cause problems with marches, parades without license
        • There are enough legal cases to make us right
        • Don't fall for a trap a cop may send that our parade is illegal; keep marching
          • we have a permit for this
      • ?
        • agrees that police brutality is a problem that deserves protest, also wants to honor the police who put their lives at risk
          • problem with policy, not persons
            • at Hempfest, they emphasize the problem is not the police, it is the law
            • believes we have a problem with training police with paramilitary tactics, and that everyone is out to get them
              • if we are antagonistic toward them, makes the problem worse
              • let's emphasize change in policy; maybe we can improve things
      • ?
        • in regards to honoring police:
          • police are part of many of our families
          • police are part of the other 99%
        • until laws change, we must be vigilant and prepared for violence on part of police
      • ?
        • the radical caucus last night decided to hold workshop on police that XXX
          • need people with knowledge and expertise to assist
            • particularly people from People of Color
        • should have ongoing workshops and debate
        • regardless of whether you think cops are on your side or not:
          • will arrest you
          • will beat you
          • might kill you
          • are trying to destroy this movement
        • to join and help plan the workshop, meet by See's Candy after tonight's GA
      • ?
        • supports a march like this
        • has big concern that we're not united on how to communicate about this issue
        • doesn't want to be in group with slanderous, angry, hateful statements hurled
        • are we ready for this?
      • ?
        • have had much discussion about issue of the police
        • has been real education for people who have been here
        • police have fulfilled institutional role: making it difficult to build movement of 99% walk around at night
          • kick people who are sleeping
          • shake tents
          • kick people in tents
          • shine lights in eyes
          • it's about sleep deprivation and weakening movement
            • not that they don't have feelings, families, pat their dogs
            • institutional role is to represent interests of the 1%
      • ?
        • someone just awarded a police officer a peace and safety ribbon
        • after last nights with police ripping blankets off, kicking, etc., this is insulting
          • peace and safety representative gave it to the cop
      • ?
        • bit concerned about having march about police brutality
          • roots us in our struggle, makes it common that this is why we're together
        • movement is about our human nature and experience
        • should bond on things that are common to all of us
      • ? from Hip Hop Occupies
        • regarding the subject: doesn't have to be all about you
          • just because you have not been unjustly treated poorly by police
            • huge majority of population has
        • will meet around 10pm near 5th and Pine
      • ?
        • last night, GA was split in half on topic of police
        • we all have differences in opinion
        • getting aggressive based on your opinion is not good for the GA
        • would have loved if all those people who split instead stayed in solidarity as a group, then met at later time
      • Maria (proposer)
        • would have proposed this last night, but were told that there was only one proposal on the agenda
      • temp check: vote?
        • yes
      • vote:
        • time: 20:44
        • proposal passed


  • ?
    • forming equality solidarity working group
  • ?
    • Seattle Solidarity Network having event
      • what: workshop
      • when: Thursday, October 20, 2011, at 6:00 p.m.
    • action
      • when: Friday, October 21, 2011, at 9:00 a.m.
      • where: 600 1st Ave.
      • march to foreclosure auction held every Friday at king county courthouse
      • general protest
  • ?
    • tomorrow at 5pm, in front of Starbucks, will be vigil of Tibetans
    • recommend attending
    • outreach intends to introduce something like mission statement
      • FYI, so far they have: Occupy Seattle is part of the global movement working to create a more just, equitable, and beautiful world
  • ?
    • what: rally for those who do not like genetically-modified food
    • when: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, at 4:00 p.m.
    • where: Westlake Park
  • ?
    • what: Seattle Central Community College students meeting
      • planning two events
      • have Occupy Seattle Club on campus
      • come meet if you're a SCCC student
    • when: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, at 8:00 p.m.
    • where: Starbucks
  • ?
    • we will have a facilitated discussion about sustainability of the movement after GA
  • ?
    • suggests reoccupation with tents again this weekend
      • try to get people to come back weekly
      • march was 3000, can do better

Adjourned 20:52

27 Responses to General Assembly notes 10/18

  • msmikestew35 says:

    The police may from an economic standpoint fall within the 99%. But the police get their economic means by serving the 1%. Also, the police goes into the profession knowing this fully. So unlike the soldier, he has no illusions. He is a hated foe and no attempt should be made to make friends with him. Such attempts demoralize the movement.

    I suggest read ‘History of the Russian Revolution’ by Leon Trotsky. He describes how on the April revolution, the police were beaten back by the workers. But the soldiers joined the workers and the revolution was won.

    Already, we have seen support from vets. We will have the support of soldiers. But this can only happen if we undertake a serious class-analysis of the problem and start becoming more independent of the ruling class. I get the feeling that there is a set of highly independent people who are occupying day and night but the organizers seem to want the attention of the media, the city and even the police.

    From Trotsky:

    ‘Throughout the entire day, crowds of people poured from one part of the city to another. They were persistently dispelled by the police, stopped and crowded back by cavalry detachments and occasionally by infantry. Along with shouts of “Down with the police!” was heard oftener and oftener a “Hurrah!” addressed to the Cossacks. That was significant. Toward the police the crowd showed ferocious hatred. They routed the mounted police with whistles, stones, and pieces of ice. In a totally different way the workers approached the soldiers. Around the barracks, sentinels, patrols and lines of soldiers stood groups of working men and women exchanging friendly words with the army men. This was a new stage, due to the growth of the strike and the personal meeting of the worker with the army. Such a stage is inevitable in every revolution. But it always seems new, and does in fact occur differently every time: those who have read and written about it do not recognise the thing when they see it.’

    *Cossaks were a type of soldier in Russia.

  • bogart14 says:

    The discussion of the position of the police has been beaten into the ground at Occupy Seattle. There is no reason to discuss their roles as individuals within large groups such as the General Assembly. No one is discussing the use of violence, so the only relevant question is of their institutional role, which is, quite obviously to anyone that has taken part in the movement, to squash that movement! Circus seems to be very confused about who his friends are. Maybe some day police will stand in opposition to their commanding officers that clearly are the bodyguards of the 1%, but that day will not be tomorrow, nor next year, so stop wasting our time talking about inclusiveness if you are talking about cops. If we were discussing violence, then the conversation might be pertinent, but we’re not. Circus: stop cooperating with the police when it is unnecessary. Why the hell would you award those that are paid to destroy our movement with a Peace and Safety Ribbon?! This is unacceptable behavior that is serious enough to make me think we as a group should reconsider your position on that committee.

  • 00michelle00 says:

    “Now there is a final reason I think that Jesus says, “Love your enemies.” It is this: that love has within it a redemptive power. And there is a power there that eventually transforms individuals. That’s why Jesus says, “Love your enemies.” Because if you hate your enemies, you have no way to redeem and to transform your enemies. But if you love your enemies, you will discover that at the very root of love is the
    power of redemption. You just keep loving people and keep loving them, even though they’re mistreating you. Here’s the person who is a neighbor, and this person is doing something wrong to you and all of that. Just keep being friendly to that person. Keep loving them. Don’t do anything to embarrass them. Just keep loving them, and they can’t stand it too long. Oh, they react in many ways in the beginning. They react with bitterness because they’re mad because you love them like that. They react with guilt feelings, and sometimes they’ll hate you a little more at that transition period, but just keep loving them. And by the power of your love they will break down under the load. That’s love, you see. It is redemptive, and this is why Jesus says love. There’s something about love that builds up and is creative. There is something about hate that tears down and is destructive. So love your enemies.” — MLK November 17, 1957

  • Ralphiesmom says:

    Thanks to Phil for the notes.

    From comment above: “No one is discussing the use of violence, so the only relevant question is of their institutional role, which is, quite obviously to anyone that has taken part in the movement, to squash that movement!”

    I agree. Believe your eyes and judge them by their actions.

    Some day if we are fully successful, some of these cops will doff their uniforms and join us as the human beings we know they are underneath. But until then, they are a malign force we cannot trust.

    • 00michelle00 says:

      Never discusses violence. The quote concerns not hating. There are those denying the SPD are members of the 99%, which by definition is silly. There are those who claim the Police carry weapons to “enforce the whims of the 1%” There are those in #Occupy that truly hate Police. I’ve said it before, if you feel strongly against Police Brutality, there are protests and marches supporting that cause.

      #Occupy is a Protest against economic inequality and social justice. And if we hate, if we view the Police as “the enemy”, we have lost. MLK had his fellow protestors attacked by dogs, fire hoses and billy clubs. And he STILL preached Love. Agape. Hatred is a violence of the heart, and can only lead to failure.

      • Ralphiesmom says:

        “…his [referring to white male power structure] police make a mockery of law;…

        Martin Luther King, Jr., The Trumpet of Conscience, 1967.

        This is not about “hating” the police. It is about acknowledging their role in this unequal society.

        • 00michelle00 says:

          That is the question, and the problem I still have with many in our Movement? It is not simply “acknowledging” the Police role in an unequal socity. It is HOW we change that role. Of course he felt the police made a mockery of the law. But how did he suggest we respond to them? Love or Hate?

          How do we change the system? The World? Love or Hate?


    So I want to get this straight…
    No one trusts the cops because they serve the interests of the 1%. So when cops arrest a serial killer or rapist of women, that’s serving the 1%? When a young punk throws a bottle through a window of a local business in “protest” and gets mad when he gets arrested, the cop is the bad guy? It’s the cops fault, not the cities fault that there is a law that you can’t camp out in the middle of a public area after 10pm? So the cops shouldn’t do their jobs and kick people out..they should totally quit their jobs and go work at 7-11 to support a wife and kids…because you think their jobs are wrong unless they are doing exactly what you think they should be doing…because this is what I’m hearing from about 3% of the 99%.

    Last week a young man was illegally burning U.S. Curreny in the middle of the street during the Chase Bank demonostration in front of 10 city cops. You know what they did? Nothing. They watched. They let him do his own protest. They also talked with many of us, took pictures of the Protest Pug with the sign in his mouth and said “many of us understand and support what you’re doing here but we have our job to do.” And so far I’m not seeing the same actions from these cops as I am NYC or Boston’s cops. I’m seeing a lot of people with a lot of misplaced anger.

    Look…police brutality is wrong. I’ve never supported it, and I think the BAD cops that do it should be tried and convicted. But how many people died in the United States died from police brutality last year? Ok…so now how many died from Lung and other forms of Cancer due to smoking? Due to drunk driving? WAY MORE. Yet I’m seeing a bunch of people at Occupy who smoke and wanna drink. Why aren’t you boycotting alcohol and cigarettes?

    This making sense yet? After reading a lot of the general assembly notes Occupt Seattle is sounding REALLY elitist and that is going to do this movement in here. And as much as I support the ideals of OWS and will continue support the movement, I’m starting to get very very suspect of the motives of Occupy Seattle’s agenda. Sounds like it’s becoming more and more about “be on guard from the Cops” than “what can we get done from sunrise to sunset to help the whole MOVEMENT. Too many pissed off Indians, not enough Chiefs.

    Go ahead and flame me for this. But a lot of people I’ve been talking to feel this same way. And it’s gonna keep people from consistently wanting to support.

    • 00michelle00 says:

      I was down there all that first week and stayed over three nights with no tent (because I don’t own one). I will support from home, typing and talking to folks. But I can not associate myself with a group that allows members consumed with hate, for whatever reason.

      I was an emotional wreck when I bailed on the Occupation Movement because I believe so strongly in the cause. But #OccupySeattle has become diluted in message. It is bogged down in an argument over camping and a platform for some to spout bile at the SPD. That is NOT Civil Disobedience as I understand the term. We must “Refrain from violence of fist, tongue and Heart”. Too many still hold hate, hold anger, hold violence of fist and heart.

    • Lake Desire says:

      According to RAINN, only 6% of rapists will ever spend a single day in jail. Don’t tell me the pigs will keep me safe from rapists.

  • msmikestew35 says:

    Mcfadden_Lives : Your comments try to equate apples to oranges. The arrogance you have shown is indicative of your class orientation which is clearly not toward the working class.

    As you well know, cops do not arrest the rich smoking LSD in their high rise apartments or gilded ghettos. They come into the most impoverished neighborhoods, imprison and torture the weak and oppressed and serve as a block to the mass of the working class coming together in revolutionary struggle against this oppression.

    Of course they can’t do this alone. Philistines like you are needed. But your time of dominating political discussions is fast coming to an end. Try and show your face at the park and show your arrogance and the peti-borguous moralizing of people smoking and see where it gets you.

    This is not your protest so stay out of it.

    For the rest of us, Leon Trotsky wrote a magnificent essay in 1940 – when the corrupt perspective of Stalinism and the hideous crimes of the Stalinists had destroyed the international communist movement to a harmless prop that served the capitalist empire. It is called : “Their Morals and Ours”.

    It is long but well worth the read. to quote:

    ‘Bourgeois evolutionism halts impotently at the threshold of historical society because it does not wish to acknowledge the driving force in the evolution of social forms: the class struggle. Morality is one of the ideological functions in this struggle. The ruling class forces its ends upon society and habituates it into considering all those means which contradict its ends as immoral. That is the chief function of official morality. It pursues the idea of the “greatest possible happiness” not for the majority but for a small and ever diminishing minority. Such a regime could not have endured for even a week through force alone. It needs the cement of morality. The mixing of this cement constitutes the profession of the petty bourgeois theoretician,, and moralists. They dabble in all colors of the rainbow but in the final instance remain apostles of slavery and submission.’

    • 00michelle00 says:

      Quoting Trotsky and telling folks “It’s not your protest” really isn’t helping that whole 99% thing. I’m curious tho…What is your solution? How do we fix the over all problem?

    • 1ofthe99percent says:

      you DO realize one cannot SMOKE LSD, right?

  • Roniz1 says:

    I for one loved the fact that “Circus” gave a officer (note Officer not Cop, Pig, Facist) a pink arm band for peace and saftey. I think this in itself is a great non violent protest. Give them flowers, cake , cookies! it shows that we are above what the police are doing to the campers. They do it very well and you can tell from the decent in the ranks when it comes to the veiws of the police.
    The police are getting the so called Anarchist campers fuming with rage and soon they will egg one on enough so he throws a punch at an officer and POOF there goes Occupy Seattle. I find it really lame that most the people that preach hate about the police havn’t figured this one out yet.

    But being in Outreach I cannot speak down to anyone or take sides my job is to get people to come down and make their voices herd.

    I will tell you this though if I do see someone there telling someone else they do not belong or they cant be there I will do my best to have that person removed.

    Go Circus you have my support. I hope someone tells him that.

  • occupy84-11 says:

    The cops… Police, as an institution, are skewed for protecting the interests of the 1%. As individuals I think many of them agree with us but are shackled to their positions. The individual cops who beat, harass and murder persons they view as breaking the law are the ones I think we need to be weary of. These violent means of control and power are a very serious by product of socialization in this country. Many, not all, police officers become officers to have an excuse to harass, beat and murder. These men are products of a combination of dysfunctional households and over exposure to violent forms of media. These factors lead them to have pent up aggression which they are dying to let out on anyone who pisses them off. Unfortunately, they take this out on droves of people who, regardless of guilt, to not deserve the treatment they receive. These individuals are the ones who, I’ve heard volunteer, to break down tents and wake up occupiers. I deeply sympathize with those who have been victims of police brutality. That’s totally fucked up and needs to change. However, it is important to keep in mind where these actions come from. Yes, the police, as an institution, is oppressive but the uber violent police people are victims of the violent, disconnected aspect of American culture which the ruling class needs in order to keep us distracted. This may be lofty but I think a better tactic would be educating them of their ignorance rather than attacking them in the same ways they attack their victims. Again, the way police treats the masses is fucked up. Discrimination and favoritism run rampant. Still, keep in mind where these thoughts and feelings come from. If we work to educate we could get them on our side then the 1% will lose a large chunk of their army. If we are violent that will only create more harassment, beating and death on our side.

    • 00michelle00 says:

      But MLK, Gandhi, Cesar Chavez seemed to all have agreed with you. Or we can just all “Hate the oppressive Pigs” and fight it out. Our choice.

  • Artful Bodger says:

    There is a group of people that have experience with running self-managed tent cities in this state. They have 20 years worth of experience. I and others may have our differences but you can’t deny their hands-on experience. I am talking about SHARE. A Q&A session with a representative from them during an Assembly would be invaluable I think.

  • lcarlucci says:

    We must have a policy to deal with the police as well as any other obstacles that are thrown in the way of progress toward a more just and equal society. Don’t get the whole GA bogged down in discussing every obstacle. This is just what the 1% is hoping for—to distract us from dealing with the main issue—them! Have the safety committee or some such come up with a suitable policy toward the police. The GA needs to get back to discussing how to tackle corporate greed because that is what is at the root of all these problems. They continue to use us against one another. So we must keep our eyes on the prize. I say:

    As the movement grows in numbers, we need to add mass boycotts to the occupation and marches. We need to add the boycott as an effective proven (by labor unions, M. Ghandi and Dr. M. L. King) tactic to hit the 1% where it hurts the most–in their pocketbooks.

    Corporations we need to target by boycotting their goods or services are those that:

    1. Pay little or no taxes.
    2. Exploit or abuse workers here or abroad.
    3. Harm the environment here or abroad.
    4. Spend excessive amounts of $$$ lobbying our politicians.
    5. Pay their CEO’s and exec’s excessive salaries and/or bonuses.
    (other offenses? Add them here.)
    Target those first who are the most egregious offenders, then go down the list. Once we start on a few of the worst, lesser offenders will begin to get the idea and start cleaning up their acts before we hit them too.
    To be effective, these boycotts need to be well publicized and supported by picket lines wherever helpful to involve maximum people and publicity.

  • msmikestew35 says:

    expvideo – kindly stop distorting facts. Marxism has nothing whatsoever to do with anarchism. Trotsky’s greatest role is how he explained – under the most difficult circumstances – the objective process around which societies evolve. Without this understanding, we will change nothing.

    When the Russian revolution broke out in 1917, there was a large body of people (Mensheviks and other stripes) that feared the workers and thus tried their best to stop it. Bolsheviks were the only group that understood that the revolution must proceed for social change. Even there, Lenin and Trotsky were the most uncompromising leaders.

    I do realize that there is an anarchist element in the movement. The difference between anarchism and socialsim is that of principled politics. The socialist revolution does not accomplish a change in society by breaking windows. Rather, it accomplishes it by an untiring exposure of existing class relations thus helping the masses to accurately identify their friends and enemies.

    Those who sling mud at Trtosky – and profess to do that in the name of American nationalism – have a very definite tendency to suppress popular demands of the working class. These types abound in trade union apparatus, for example. And the way the trade union movement in America manages to eke out a living for the American workers is by

    1) supporting brutal imperial wars abroad
    2) appealing to the most backward nationalist sentiments of people

    Why do they do this? Because doing this enables them to get some choice crumbs thrown off the table of the overfed capitalists.

    To the moralists, find out a place to run when the capitalist state starts on the offensive. They will not stop at just kicking you around in the nights. To the degree that a perspective that binds the many real grievances of the 99% is not appearing out of this, we will be exposed to the police brutality with no ideological weapon to counter it.

    But then, the moralists will probably be home and it will be the young people camping who will suffer the blows of the police.


    lcarlucci: I have to say that after a rough start I’m reading through here and there are a lot of good, well thought out opinions, even in possible disagreement. I like a lot of the last few replies especially yours…FOCUS! Keep our eyes down the road at the main goal of it all, get new faces down there this weekend and every week and keep building the public interest to not be afraid to come out and support. Solidarity!

  • msmikestew35 says:

    expvideo : Why did you bring up anarchists into the conversation, if it was not a feeble attempt to link the socialist revolution to anarchism? You very clearly said that you will fight “communists than fight the current establishment.” What have the communists done to you that is so much more terrible than what the “establishment” does to millions of us?

    The two comments both came from you. You clearly value the establishment and the cops over a revolutionary movement and that shows more than anything else your class orientation.

    Let’s restate some of your comments so we can be sure:

    ‘The police are a tool of the 1%. However, the SPD has been very tolerant of the Occupy movement, and so far has been a shining example for the rest of the country to follow.’

    If waking people up every hour and kicking them around for sport is what you consider a “shining example”, it is clear that you will plead with the cops to go back to kicking the protestors when the cops actually start beating their heads in.

    I wonder how much history of the working class struggle in this country you have actually read. Or is is that you are in a middle class position and view both sides with equal hatred? It is not hard to understand this position. A socialist movement does not ignore the middle class. Trotsky was emphatic on this point. Trotsky saw the increasing bewilderment of the middle class to be one prerequisite for a revolution.

    But Trotsky was equally clear (as were Lenin, Engels, Marx, Rosa Luxemburg) that the middle class is organically incapable of *leading* a socialist revolution. They will follow when it is clear to them that the working class is at the head and winning. Not a moment before. and they will join grudgingly, dagging their feet, forever fearful that they will lose the little bits of property they have etc.

    If you doubt this, just look at the role the organizers have played up to now. Top of the site under “Breaking news” is that we got a permit that turns out to be a trick of the city. But clearly the organizers think this is a great achievement. There are many more examples of this and I’m sure we have not seen the end to this behavior from the organizers.

    Their method is one developed with cunning by the borgouis representatives of the Democratic Party and all other “left” politicians – this idea that all ideas are allowed and then try to nibble away at anyone who wants to drive for clarity, to chart a course to fundamentally and concretely achieve the demands of the 99%.

  • sudopinion says:

    It is nothing short of amusing to witness the utter ineptitude of this movement.

    From what I understand, this was all born out of anger and frustration.

    2 weeks of protests and nothing to show for it but a bunch of arrests and a party which made local businesses cash hand over fist.

    What have you accomplished?

    I look at protests in other nations and see visible outrage as demonstrated by violence and destruction. Perhaps you consider yourself too civilized. Do you think your funny signs and anon-masks are arousing anything other than horn-honking?

    The ones who robbed this nation and toast to your misfortune think you are magnificent fools.

    Fucking DO SOMETHING.

    • 00michelle00 says:

      You tell me, exactly. What do you propose we do. Break things? Molotov Cocktails? Weapons? WHAT DO WE DO? Seriously, I am confused.

      What do we do that will reflect our “visible outrage”. You reference violence and destruction. Do we go to war? Is violence appropriate in this situation? In your opinion,what the FUCK do we do?

    • 00michelle00 says:

      Have you been supporting #OccupySeattle for long, Sudopinion?


    ok I’m going to pipe back in here…

    first off, instead of being mad at each other, can we be mad at this article? because this is where media and marketing is heading…

    yeah I know right? but that’s the reality of it…

    00Michelle00, you ask what do we do…long term, short term…we have to be honest with what Seattle has right now and what it will have going forward…the colder it gets outside the less people will be willing to camp out. the more campers get harassed the more (though hopefully not) they’ll want to move. and the more there appears to be clear dysfunction in the group, the less people will want to support/drive current supporters away thus bringing numbers down and making the local movement appear weaker and fractured. not good.

    Sudopinion isn’t wrong by asking what he did. I think the movement locally has to ask “what do we have to show for it?” and if we can’t say we truly believe the statement being made and changing anything or is effecting anything (bring new faces down to help out, getting on the news everyday, working to make changes locally, etc) then a different (non-violent) statement has to be made. Do we have people going to city committee meetings, counsil meetings, anything the public can go and see what is going on within the city to rally for/against? Drawing up inititives for things that could get petitioned to get voted on city wide, state wide?

    You could talk with a lot of older protest veterans and people who have learned how to get things done effectively, which I’ve done, and they would mostly say the same thing. A protest without any effective results is equivilant to a Facebook status update. No one really sees it, and those that do are already a part of the choir you’re preaching to. Time to find battles, big or small, that are in line with the movement and find a way to win them. And kudos to all those that are getting actual work for the movement done daily. Huge kudos. But the infighting has to stop. No one is right or wrong for their opinion (except mine because again, I’m a 1% reptilian who’s a plant for Alex Rush’OReily’s InfoPlanet Factor show) and the focus has to be put back into the movement. Period. Start asking other Occupy cities what they are doing to get things done and remain intact and dare I say, copy or apply it to us. Because if it’s a movement, and working for them, it can’t hurt to try. Ego’s aside, movement comes first.


    someone who is a WS Executive giving good points, advice, staying calm and engaging in discussion with several smart OWS folks, and being attacked by some OWS folks that have the religious right wing attitude. if you wanted to see how most react to someone on the outside offering help and how messed up things are on a lot of issues with OWS and the local movement, read the replies. a lot of it is good stuff, while a lot of the replies are about as paranoid sounding as an Alex Jones forum.